The Men’s Liberation Army

Humorous caption goes here

Humorous caption goes here

Rise up, my brothers. No, not right now. Read this first.

I came across a video online recently – Love Me Long Time – Sex Tourism in Thailand. I was expecting a biased, critical hatchet-job on the disgusting sex tourists who head to Thailand as often as they can manage to shag bargirls.

Set on Koh Samui rather than in Bangkok, there was actually no preaching, just a series of western males and (pig-ugly, for some reason) Thai females talking to camera, interspersed with footage from the bars.

Justin, 33, hits the nail on the head:

My mum doesn’t seem to mind the fact that I come to Thailand. She knows that I have friends here. She probably prefers to leave it at that! My female friends seem quite amused by the idea. My female ex-girlfriends think it’s absolutely appalling, and aren’t I I’m a very sad man, and that’s probably the reason they’re not with me any more in the first place. But what the hell? It’s what I think that matters, anyway.

It’s easy (and commonplace) to dismiss western men in Thailand as being sleazy whoremongers, who are only in Thailand because they couldn’t attract women in their own country, couldn’t afford prostitutes in their own country, and have to resort to cheap prostitutes in a developing country in order to have any kind of sex life. And for some guys, it’s probably true.

But surely there’s more to this picture? Of course. Perhaps there’s one male English teacher in Thailand who’s here because he just enjoys teaching English to the Thais. Say hi from me if you ever meet him.

Joking aside, this is how we’re largely painted by the West. And it’s starting to really get on my nerves. So this is a semi-serious look at exactly what has motivated thousands of men to disrupt their lives and “up sticks” to Thailand – and countries like it.

Fellow blogger Smitty recently published an article in which he mentioned Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Let’s take a look at it:

Basically, humans take care of the needs at the bottom of the pyramid first, then once those needs are securely satisfied, we try to ascend up the pyramid to higher states of fulfillment.

Smitty wrote that Bangkok is an incredibly cheap city to achieve the former, and he’s correct. I’m taking a different angle myself though.

Basic Needs

Look at the base level of the diagram again. Breathing. Food. Water. Sex. Sleep. Homeostasis. Excretion.

Whoa. Back up a little there. Sex. A basic physiological human need. And right now, across the western world, millions of men aren’t getting any.

Let’s not beat around the bush. Some of them (us?) really are social inadequates. Too ugly, too fat, too dull or just too plain embarrassing to attract a mate. They’re here, and we’ve all met them. I don’t consider myself amongst their number though, and I’m guessing you don’t either.

There are a lot of Western guys here who are young, at least reasonably good-looking, and successful in their careers. And yes, this is where I place myself. Flame away, internerds.

This fact alone kind of eliminates the catch-all smear that we’re all desperate sexual inadequates. For my own part, whilst I certainly suffered a few barren patches during my life in the UK, I also had several short-term and long-term relationships, and certainly had my fair share of one-night stands.

I even dated a couple of models. We’re not talking Vogue here, but women who were sufficently good-looking to make money from it. I’m not boasting by any means – just establishing my credentials, as it were. The point is that not one of them ever made me feel as alive and as appreciated as I do with an Asian (usually, in my case, Thai) girl.

I’m not just talking about bargirls, either. I’ve dated “good girls” in Bangkok, but at the moment I’m not doing so – by choice.

Whilst it’s trivial to hook up with a “good girl” in Thailand, it can often take weeks or months until she’s willing to “put out”. Some guys are happy to have the “girlfriend”, but still visit the bars in order to get regular sex while they’re waiting. I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that, so I don’t bother at all.

After all, this is a country in which being single really can be enjoyable, without the worry of involuntary celibacy.

Girls Don’t Like Boys, Girls Like Cars And Money

Justin:

It’s what they don’t do that makes you fall in love with them. They don’t scream and shout all the time. They don’t look at you like dirt if you come in five minutes late. They don’t demand the earth, and give nothing in return. And that’s the reason why I fall in love with them.

The prevailing attitude of Western women is one of “What can you offer me?”. It’s down to we men to prove that we are worthy, whilst women seem to behave as if they have nothing to prove themselves. The balance of power is firmly within the female grasp, and they know it. And don’t they love rejecting those men they deem as unworthy?

Compliment a British girl on her looks, and you’re probably going to get a sarcastic remark, or maybe a slap. “Yeah, I know I’m hot. So what? Fuck off”. Not always, of course. But far more often that it happens in this part of the world.

Because when you compliment a Thai girl on her looks, she’s grateful. She appreciates the gesture. And if she’s single, and you can speak a little Thai (or she can speak a little English), the chances are reasonably good that you’ll at least get her phone number and a lunch date. Maybe more.

There’s a huge stigma attached to prostitution in the West. A similar stigma applies in Thailand, although some tourists don’t realise it. Thai men tend to put up a mia noi in an apartment, or to visit the soapies to get their end away. Everything happens behind closed doors. Whilst nobody will deny that it exists, it’s treated with discretion. When they see a lovelorn farang walking down Sukhumvit, holding hands with a girl who’s obviously a prostitute, they can’t believe how coarse we are.

But at the end of the day, most sexual/romantic relationships have a financial element. And this is the point where western women get very, very angry. Let’s look at two extreme examples:

  1. Dave plucks Noi from a Nana Plaza gogo bar. They go to his room and have sex. Dave gives Noi some money. She leaves. If he likes her, he might get her number and call her again. Otherwise, he’ll shag someone else tomorrow.
  2. Darren settles down in the UK and marries Natalie. Darren works, Natalie is a housewife. They have sex regularly, although not as regularly as Darren would like. His salary goes into their joint bank account, from which Natalie finances her wardrobe, cosmetics, and an inordinate number of shoes. After some years, they divorce. Natalie receives half of Darren’s net worth. If they have kids, she gets custody of them, and may get to keep Darren’s house.

In both examples, the men are trading money for sex. The only difference, from a purely objective point of view, is the length of the contract and the amount payable. I prefer option one.

Justin again:

Back in England, the last three serious relationships I’ve had cost me an absolute fortune. The women have been – the ladies have been – particularly cruel during breakups. They’ve taken money off me left, right and centre, expecting me to pay for everything, and still had a scowl on their face at the end of the day. The ladies here are a lot more accommodating. And they’re a lot more honest and up-front. Now that might not be very poetical to people back in the UK, but I think most of the guys you meet out here would agree that the ladies here are a lot more decent. They treat you better.

“They never should’ve let them vote…”

You do meet (usually older) guys in this part of the world who I think go too far. The men who seem to genuinely believe that women shouldn’t have got the vote. That they belong in the kitchen by day, and the bedroom by night.

A friend tells a tale of an elderly gent he met in Cambodia, who was bitching about how much the UK has changed for the worse.

“Back in my day, there was no such thing as ‘date rape'”, he said. “Girls just got what they deserved”.

I hope we can agree that this is going too far. But in an era when Lorena Bobbitt was publicly heralded by feminists after cutting off her allegedly abusive husband’s penis with a carving knife (she served 45 days), where are the balances?

If a man were to gruesomely disfigure or remove his abusive wife’s genitals with kitchen utensils, he would (rightly) be imprisoned for a very, very long time. Men would not be holding him up as a role model.

But to challenge or rail against the gender roles in the West is to invite insults and anger. “Misogynist”. “Chauvinist”. “You just hate women”.

Leave for Thailand, and the inevitable thinly-veiled insults will follow you. “Sex tourist”. “Whoremonger”. “Can’t get laid at home”.

I have discovered that it is impossible to explain Thailand to anyone who hasn’t been here. “Why would I have sex with a girl who only wants my money?”, asked a pal in a pub in the UK as I tried to explain the Bangkok bar scene to him a while back. I didn’t answer – I just gave him an enigmatic smile, as he turned back to the fat white girl whose drinks and cigarettes he was paying for. You can’t win these arguments.

The Payoff

But I get the payoff every day here. I watch white women in Bangkok. At first they’re enchanted, cooing at the cute Thai kids on the streets, loving the cheap and tasty street food, and maybe even enviously admiring the beautiful Thai women.

But slowly and surely, they crumble. Because the more they see white men with Thai girls, the more angry and scared they become.

Their deal in the West is pretty peachy. Like women everywhere, they supply sex and companionship in return for what’s usually referred to as “security”, but which actually means “money”. They know what’s expected of them, and they know what they can get away with.

When they visit Thailand, and see women more beautiful than they are, supplying men with far more affection and happiness than they’d ever be willing to, they realise that they can’t compete. They’ve been outsourced.

Liberation

One last pearl from Justin:

I see feminism has swung perhaps a little bit too far in the west. And because men have dared to go and try to make themselves happy, instead of being constantly barracked, there is prejudice – yeah. But all we are daring to do is get happy, and have some fun. Which seems to be okay for western women, but is a terrible thing for western men to want to do.

As of today, what are the choices for a discerning western gentleman, sick and fed up of being treated like a meal-ticket and getting very little out of the deal? If he’s unable to emigrate to (for example) Thailand, sadly the answer is “not much”.

Refusing to be treated in the way most western women treat their men is an invitation for scorn and celibacy. There will never be a shortage of horny men waiting to chat up your girlfriend. This is the way of the world.

If every man on earth grew a pair of cast-iron balls, and we rose up as one to say that we demand to be treated better, then maybe. But that’s not going to happen. The Men’s Liberation Army is not a global movement. It’s a handful, relatively speaking, of disenfranchised men who’ve searched the world for happiness, and found the women of South-East Asia.

When we try to share this relative utopia (Bangkok is NOT perfect by any means, but compared to Birmingham, Basildon or Basingstoke there’s no contest), we’re met with scorn, envy or both.

To the rest of the world: Sorry. We tried to tell you. You didn’t listen. But if you ever change your minds, come on over. The water’s lovely.

151 thoughts on “The Men’s Liberation Army

  1. I like the term sex tourist, since I was 15 i've never been on holiday anywhere in the world where I wasn't trying to get laid.

  2. Great article-sooo true.Most humans believe in equal rights but not special rights,which white women now have,Just look at the judicial system,sexual harassment(how 1-sided is that),EEO's,divorce & child support,custody of children,alimony etc.etc.etc.

  3. Excellent piece…………

    And further more, have you seen how the Thai women bring out the 'gentleman' in us.   We treat these ladies with a level of respect that we had almost forgotten….. and that makes us feel good too.  Western women would love that sort of courtesy but nowadays they just won't get it. 
    As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

    (ok – there are a few assholes out there who are…. well, assholes, but by and large I have seen western men re-discovering the gentleman they always wanted to be)

  4. Thanks guys!

    @Prickly: Amen! But the point stands, I think – men who have the temerity to reject western women and find more enjoyable partners are being tarred with negative slurs. You and I may ironically revel in the label "sex tourist", but western society has us down as scum. Objectively, this is nonsense.

    @Bangkok Bill: I'm all for equal rights, if equality is what's really being asked for. When's the last time a western woman held a door open for you, or stood up when you walked in the room?

    @doctorbond: Good points, and yes there are outliers in both camps. There are western chicks who still know how to treat a man well (they get snapped up very quickly!), there are Thai girls who are utter mercenary bitches, and there are guys who deserve neither. I don't like generalisations, generally speaking, but sometimes it's the best way to make a point…

  5. I think the woman in the picture is a real slackard. Surely she could carry more sticks of wood than that!
    I would like to join the Men's Liberation Army. Where do you sign up? I agree asian (especially Thai) women are way more feminine than the western femi-nazis.
    Just one question, though. In your scenario above: What if Darren married Noi and they split up, wouldn't Noi also clean house and end up with half of everything too (just like those evil western witches)?

  6. Touché. Obviously it depends on the territory in which you marry, and the local divorce laws. In the west, even if a bloke doesn't want kids, there's real pressure to marry as you get older. As an older gent of my acquaintance is Bangkok says: "Have you seen what the western dating scene is like for a man of my age?"

    Over here, it doesn't matter if you're 20, 40, 60 or 80. Smile, and you're still going to be treated like a movie star.

  7. on a similar note to the guy that said 'get what they deserved' one thing that fucks me off is the pricks iv met that have lived here for god knows how long and cant be arsed 2 learn the language………. i was in a 'english pub' which shall remain nameless (but lets say its a shithole) and the prick at the bar was asking the girl for another glass and ice for his beer(in english)…….. she didnt understand him and he was getting irate and raising his voice at her …… i was waiting to be served and he was holding me up, so i asked her in thai for him…….. what he said next shocked me bigtime "thanx mate, shes a fucking idiot i been her boss for 6 years and she still cant speak a word of english"…….. what a gold medal twat…….. been living here for 6 years and he cant ask for a glass or ice? prick!

  8. BBB, excellent article . . . Was in Thailand for my one and only visit so far in April 2002, didn't feel like coming back home ! I'm hoping to get back out there in the near future now that certain commitments have finished. As an aside, whilst out driving this morning I couldn't help but notice as I passed, a mid twenties plain looking chubby chick, wearing a skirt designed to cover her no doubt 'tree trunk like legs'. It was almost brushing the floor as it  swayed as she waddled . . . revealing a ladylike pair of trainers ! How the fuck they expect to get and keep a bloke in this country with dress sense like that I'll never know ! Makes me sad to think of all the class chicks I'll be leaving behind in the UK.

  9. This subject as been broached many times, your right, until a bloke as been to Thailand he'll never know what a shit life he is leading.
    I'm working back in the UK at the moment, my home is in Thailand. I see plenty of guys who have just given up on life! Being towed round town by a thing which as no concept of respect and is probably 15kg over weight. I just think of some of my Thai wifes friends who would kill to meet a western guy. To make home for them and be a good wife through thick and thin.
    Don't get me wrong, my wife is still a woman at the end of the day. Mood swings, picture but no sound days. She also is my equal, she never tries to be better than me, unlike my previous english wife who had to do everything better, job, drink and snore better than me.
    Once you've had Thai, you'll never look at a western woman in quite the same way again!

  10. Excellent article, I hope it runs and runs. One of the problems with western women is, that they want equal rights, but are unwilling to take equal responsibility. How many times do you hear on CNN or BBC something like ……"20 hostages including women and children." So, by implication, someof the hostages are men, but we don't stand up for ourselves, for fear of being labeled misogynistic, or chauvanistic. I went back to falangland, with Mrs Bob-a Thai-and everything posted on this thread is SO true. If I never touch another white woman, that'll be fine with me.

  11. Props to you again BBB for another exceptional post, it was all ‘spot on’. I liked the comment of the western women being “outsourced”. At first it was TVs, cell phones, and toothpaste. Now it is women and it has been for a long time. Only thing nowadays is that with more worldwide traveling and the marvels of the Internet it is just heard about more often, thus picking up stream.  I married my Thai wife five years ago and for all the right reasons. First of all she has a ‘jai dee’ (good heart) as most of the Thai women do. She is not materialistic as the western women are. That is, when we met the first thing out of her mouth wasn’t, “what kind of car do you drive” or “how big is your house” or “how much money do you make”. She could have cared less about all that. She just wanted to know me for who I am. Since I have met her, and it still continues today, she has excelled at trying to make me happy and fulfilled man. She is not stubborn, self-centered, or hateful in any fashion whatsoever. Moreover she is beautiful and not an ounce overweight. Don’t get me wrong (and I, like you, am not bragging) but in the USA I dated a few models and even one NFL cheerleader. But, all of them like their western counterparts were only $$$$ hungry.  I love Thailand, I love the country, I love the food, I love the people, and I love my wife and family. I just wish the baht was weaker and that all farang women would stay home and shut the f$#k up.

  12. great article and its so true
    i get sick of arm-chair pundit white woman that slag off thai woman saying there 'ugly' and all money hungry – most of these girls havent even left there home country and have no grounds to comment
    when i tell them i have a thai GF they instantly think shes a whore who wants an english passport. most of these girls are twats i used to go skool with and now find themselves 22years old with 2 kids by different dads, grossly overweight working in a supermarket at the weekend while scrounging on the dole and shacked up in a grotty council flat
    truth is i wouldnt ever entertain a western woman again. im engaged to my GF, we both young (im 23 shes 20) and shes a student -but shes not materialistic, we split everything 50/50without any quibbles and is the warmest person i ever met
    couldnt agree with you more MA

  13. Y'know, there's a series of jokes that runs" you know you've been in **** too long, when you………". I watched that vid, 'Love me long time-sex tourism in Thailand', and although I've never seen any of the people depicted in it, I felt I could almost almost lip-sync. O.K. not the exact words, but the sentiment:"I know some Thai women are money grabbers, but not Noi/Nid/Lek, she's different". Have I been here too long? Have I become too cynical? Or, is there just a seemingly endless supply of self-deluding geeks, lining-up at airport check-ins around the world, panting at the prospect of their 2-3 weeks in paradise? All of us here, at sometime ,have been taken in by the sweet smile, the soft, curvaceous body, the big, doe eyes. Yep, me too. Guilty as charged. But I went home not so much crashing back to Earth, as gently parachuting into a cow-pat laden reality. I worked out a plan: what do I want? What do I have to offer? Then, I came back to LOS, and started to put the plan into effect. 4 years, do I have any regrets? Yeah, but for every regret there are 20 reasons to be happy, I'd say that's a pretty good ratio. I remember over on "Mangosauce",  a video of some guy, Tony I think, got taken to the cleaners by his, now-disappeared-back-to-Thailand wife. Will I still be listening to these guys next year? 2 years from now? 10 years? It's a jungle out there in the LOS, it's not for everyone, my guess is that maybe 10% of the wannabe's can make it. What do you guys think?

  14. I’m in the 10%…. I got a ‘WINNER”!!!! And damn proud of her… But more to be said, I have the smarts/common sense to know what is a real dream and what is a ‘pipe dream’… Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones…. :-).. Like I said before, you usually only hear about the losing stories because the guys with the winning stories are far to busy enjoying their happy life to wirte about it on the WWW. Me, I have three weeks working in China every month trying to ‘kill time’ so that is why I have the time to rant and rave about my successful marriage to a Thai beauty.

  15. for every 100 'success stories' you only ever hear about the 3 bad experiences – like anywhere in the media/world people seem to take pleasure in other peaoples misery rather then success  -best phrase i ever heard……… "takes years to build a reputation but seconds to destroy it"
    similar principle
    people would rather hear about people falling flat on there face or failing then someone succeeding

    most common line i hear from the armchair cunts in england is 'all thais are sluts'………… coming from guys that live with white 16stone ugly munters who have never ventured further then tenerife or if they are priveledged maybe ibiza!

    i sent pictures of my fiancee back to england and i get usual shit like – 'how much u paying her'? and 'does she love you long time' truth is you will never find a more loyal or kind hearted partner then a 'normal' thai girl and its bitter pricks that are stuck with kids by a po faced western girls that shoot them down – and even worse the western girls themselves

  16. Generally the blokes in that video come off pretty well. Lucky they didn't have me on there talking about my "Pattaya 9 Hole" game.

  17. there's really no denying it though.  men really do go to thailand for the women there.  everyone reading this blog is guilty of it.  

    the primary reasons are probably the cost, the ease, and availability of it there.   you just cut out the bullshit and go straight to the action.  no women's rights crap and pretentious attitudes to get in your way.

    but damn, they have some awful looking girls on the video.  at least throw up some stunners from poseidon or rainbow…

  18. Anon, I can surely deny it! Quit assuming.. You do know what 'assume' stands for, right? I went to Thailand for my work. And not for the P4P programs. Although after getting to know my way around that did become a benefit. And made every trip thereafter more adventurous. That is until I met my wife. Now it's just taking my friends and colleagues out on the town and teaching them the 'ins and outs' of BKK…… (Much pun intended…)

  19. An interesting post. I recall quoting Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in my resignation from a shit job some time ago.

    I’m a white Western woman living (mainly) in the UK. What separates the sexes is pretty much just biology. But that doesn’t mean that all men are the same – nor all women.

    Don’t assume that because you’re stereotyping white Western women they’ll all be stereotyping you. Some of us aren’t. I could list a few white Western male ‘stereotypes’ for you.

    Part of the reason I’ve never wanted children of my own are the several friends who had them younger having been dumped with little/no support by the time I felt responsible enough to have kids. (Dumped usually for a younger model – only for the men, a few years down the line, to find themselves in the same ‘miserable’ situation for the second time around).

    Then there are the women I know who are having affairs because they feel more like a mother to their partner than, well… a partner. (And it’s hard to sustain the hots for someone when they’re like an additional kid). Or the men who fall out of love with a partner, but rather than have the guts (maybe they don’t want to feel bad about themselves) to say so will find some way to blame the woman, eroding her confidence in the process – men who also, usually, hang on in there with the relationship until they find another woman to cushion the fall (eroding their previous partner’s confidence even further).

    But I don’t assume that all men are like that. I know a lot of them who are not. I’ve never taken ‘advantage’ of a man, (nor had a man treat me badly). In fact, I recently turned down a date with a guy partly because he was well-off. I have my own place and a reasonable income and I like to pay my own way, and wouldn’t be able to afford the kind of lifestyle he’s probably used to sharing.

    My friends aren’t users, either. Maybe some of you have just been hanging out with the wrong kind of women. On the weight issue – I’m slim, but I have the best times with men who like women with a little flesh on their bones. They seem to delight more in a woman’s body, somehow. To take as much pleasure from a woman’s response to what they do as from what the woman can do for them. And extremists have given ‘feminists’ a bad name (there are extremists in your ‘camp’ too, surely).

    It’s still a fact that men who murder their partners get on average 20% of the jail time that a woman would get for doing the same thing. Personally the sexiest thing I find in a man is wit. I can have great sex with a man who lacks it, but it doesn’t mean I find him sexy.

    That’s the ‘more’ I want in a man – not a man who’s a bank, nor a man who’s a doormat. But a man who can also make me laugh in bed. I’ve dated men from different cultural backgrounds, but I prefer a shared culture, experience, sense of humour (particularly) etc. I just find we’re on a better wavelength.

    I imagine that on this blog you’re preaching to the converted. Those who stereotype WWW (having closed minds) are just reaffirming a particular view of them, and therefore not persuading we less likely readers (with open minds) of their argument.

    Feel free to choose the life, culture – and women – that you want. Not all we WWW would berate you for that. It’s not WWW who are your problem, if you ask me, but Western culture. Where we know the price of everything, but the value of nothing (making much of Maslow’s hierarchy – sadly – redundant).

  20. Hi WWW.

    Some salient points, and I applaud you for having the manners to keep it polite. If I were contributing to a conversation between a bunch of western woman who were badmouthing western men, I doubt I'd be quite as calm and measured.

    I don't hate western women, and I know they're not all miserable and fat. I'll even go so far as to say that I've seen some stunning western girls recently in Bangkok (usually models), who I'm man enough to admit that I'd love to get to know better, but wouldn't have the slightest chance with.

    But a piece about society and gender in general has to generalise by its very nature. And generally speaking, I've found (as have most of the previous commenters) SE Asian – and particularly Thai – women to be more "feminine" and less abrasive than their Western counterparts.

    As I already said in a comment above to "doctorbond": there are outliers in both camps. There are western chicks who still know how to treat a man well (they get snapped up very quickly!), there are Thai girls who are utter mercenary bitches, and there are guys who deserve neither.

    The point is, and I'm assuming the guys above have all visited Thailand, that in a numbers game Thailand seems to come out on top for most of us, and not by a little.

    Incidentally, most men are assuredly capable of making women laugh in bed, especially after an all-day piss-up – I certainly am. Although perhaps not in the manner you were hoping for.

    I don't quite see how I can summarise an entire culture and gender without generalising, and whilst stereotypes can obviously be incorrect in many cases, they do exist for a reason.

    That said, unless anyone has a secret to share, I think we can welcome our first female contributor. I'm impressed.

  21. Ever been in the west, open a door for a girl that never says thank you, let her out on to the main road in her car in front of you and she looks at you as though its her right away, buy her flowers and you get a grunt! Take her out purchase drinks, dinner, flowers the next day and what do you get? The sooner I am back in Thailand the better. The problem is a woman in the west wants to be a man, they feel threatened, they want to be the hunter! equal rights have a different meaning, of course very one should have equal rights, after all not all woman are dogs,  just a woman should be a "woman" and a man " a gentleman" that how it works in Thailand and god bless them for it.

  22. Ah, well. 'Femininity' is a cultural concept, and a whole other debate, (and probably one not appropriate for this website). You've found a place where women fit the concept that best suits you, and good luck to you.

  23. Having just returned from a little R&R in BKK, allow me my two kyats worth. I picked up a nice looking (not a leggy stunner, just NICE looking) girl from the Nana car park. I ask her if she'll do long-time, and she's keen, but first, as it's only about nine in the evening, she has time for a short-time with someone else first. I'm impressed with her honesty, her shrewd business acumen, and her adorable little shorts. So we go long-time after she takes a short-time and I drink a beer, and she turns out to have the manners of a geisha; she's delicate, kind, attentive, fun, and cleaner than a Swiss watch. Plus, she weighs 40 kilos. About the weight of the average farangette thigh, only with no fat. She turns her phone off without being asked. She's happy to be with me, and likes a cuddle after, like I do. I'm hooked. I ask her if she'd like to go to Ko Samui for a few days, and she's up for that. So after I make a quick private call to 3B (always a source of sagely advice) we arrive at an economic solution. It turns out to be her first flight (and she's twenty-four) – and to see her excitement was worht the price of the ticket alone. She even (ADORABLY) watches the hostess demonstrate the lifesaving equipment. The four day trip is the best holiday I ever had in my life, no contest. We stay in a beachfront cabin at a resort hotel where she's the only Thai on holiday. We get the looks, of course. At breakfast, the farangettes are nearly all overweight and underdressed. My girl dresses correctly and beautifully – the Thais are strangely prudish – and she notices their looks, too. We don't care. I'm enjoying the company of a beautiful girl under half my age. We have a lot of jokes, a lot of fun, a lot of sex. (One of my friends back in the UK grumpily asked me "what can you and some Thai prostitute have to talk about?", and I replied "what can you and some English wife have to fuck about?"). In a foot massage place, one of the girls asks her if I'm her boyfriend, and she says, no, we just met, and he pays me. Total honesty, total class.

    Coming back to BKK, the first thing she does is wire the money I pay her to her mother. In Issaaan, of course. Her father, a rice farmer, died four years ago, and the father of her daughter left her for another woman and doesn't support her. She lost her job in the factory when they moved the production to China. She came to BKK to make money to keep her mother and her daughter. She's a totally good person. Exploited? She'd laugh at the idea. She, like the other freelancers, doesn't have a pimp, she hasn't been sold into slavery, she's in total control. She has better manners and more class than at least half the wives I've paid hundreds of thousands of pounds for over the years. She's strong, bright, funny, sexy, and yes, I suppose I am fighting off a major falling-in-luuuurve thing right now.

    The point is; where else could this exchange, this arrangement, have taken place? Hammersmith? Walthamstow? Leicester?

    I'm a sex tourist, sure, and proud of it. Send me my badge for the MLA.

  24. Nice post Pants Elk, You seem to have a level headed approach to things. An arrangement between 2 adults, that, by all accounts, was a win-win situation with both parties treating the other with respect. I wonder if the same level of respect was enjoyed by the "judging class" who scornfully watched you and your companion on the beach or in a restaurant. Was it scorn or jealousy that prevented them from seeing the reality: 2 people having fun and enjoying eachothers company?

    WWW Your post of Aug 15th 10:00 p.m. Was an erudite, thoughtful and thoroughly enjoyable piece of writing. I for one would like to join with BBB and say "welcome", I look forward to reading more of your posts.

  25. Thanks for the nice comments about my post. Underneath all 3B's "bragging" about his sexual exploits is, I know, something that people who are not familiar with the BKK scene will find impossible to understand. Love and respect. That's, surprisingly, what you finish up feeling for these girls; and respect is the last thing they (and we) get from the tabloid mindset of sneering Little Britain. Sure, jealousy plays a part, but ignorance a bigger one. We need (well, they need) a total re-education on the concept of "paying for sex"; why is this such a moral problem? It's perfectly okay to pay someone to cook for you, to cut your hair, to remove your appendix, to mow your lawn – no moral dilemmas there – but to fuck you? This kind of anguished headscratching is totally foreign to the Issan girl, of course. So many of the "issues" (my least favourite word of all time) plaguing Modern Western Woman are literally incomprehensible to Issan Girl, and she's better off for it.

  26. Hats off to you EP, you summed it up in such few words:

    "Love and respect"………
     
    I could not have said it better myslef…. It's those ones that don't "Love and respect" themselves that don't really understand.

  27. Brilliant post, BBB, and some great comments. You hit the nail on the head when you wrote that people who have never been to Thailand are incapable of understanding. I used to be honest with farang friends – male and female – about what went on here, but generally received hostility from both genders.
    I fell out with one female friend when she asked what was the attraction of Thai women to western men. "It's not rocket science," I replied. "They are beautiful, petite, great in bed and generally a lot of fun." You would have thought I had admitted to being a paedophile. She accused me of being a shallow sexist and we haven't spoken since.
    But it is possible to convert people if they come to Thailand. My sister was another who always scornfully referred to the "sleaze" here until I took her to Pattaya for a week. It doesn't get any more full on than Sin City, but my sister was reassured when she saw the girls in the bars were generally so happy and fun-loving, had not been trafficked, did not have pimps and were free to say no to any customer.
    If you want true sleaze, go to Soho or Amsterdam.

  28. @Penfold: All girls have nine holes – the usual three, plus nostrils, ears and eye-sockets. I wouldn't like to meet the kind of bloke who'd consider putting his nong chai in all nine though, although I'd reserve a little pity for him if it was small enough to fit…

  29. Thanks for your comments BBB, chicagobob and Pants Elk. I have to admit I’m not a regular reader of this site – I linked to it via a blog that I often read and mention of Maslow caught my interest. I’m not sure that I’d feel compelled to comment on the content of the more usual posts!

    I did, however, stay in Thailand for a fair while some years back, and shared digs for some of that time with bargirls, who were lovely women and great company.I have to say when they talked to me of their view of their work – in (often good) English, as my Thai was even at eventual best limited pretty much to finding my way around – the words ‘love’ and ‘respect’ were never used.

    They did, however, appreciate it when treated well by ‘good guys’, as most had suffered the alternative during their experiences with WWM. (Maybe things have changed since I was out there, and stuff like that doesn’t happen so much any more).They didn’t have ‘pimps’ as such, but regarded the bar owners as much the same thing, and reckoned they were only allowed to move between bars with no hassle because there were always so many girls ready and willing to take their place.

    They were to some extent ignorant of life in the West, and I have to say didn’t seem to share the ‘stereotype’ view of WWW (though at that time Thailand was more ‘backpacker’ than ‘tourist’)… but I have to say that – though they expressed no desire to leave Thailand – they envied the choice and opportunities that I had in the West.

    Obviously you can argue that these women choose to do what they do, but when the other option is, for example, a family going short on food, or simply not having access to the opportunities that a better income can bring, I’m not sure what real choice that is.As I’ve said, I have no issue with the lifestyle chosen by WWM out there, though feel that life in the ‘Kokosphere is possible due to simple economics, and this isn’t often acknowledged.

    It does annoy me when some WWM (ironically) romanticise the lifestyle – from the viewpoint of the women. (Though I concede that romanticising paying for someone to have sex with you would be a natural subconscious desire for some).Of course there’s a difference between life in the ‘Kokosphere and looking for a future with a (as BBB call them) ‘nice’ Thai girl. And I’m sure that meaningful relationships can (and have) been found with bargirls. But like you say, BBB – stereotypes do ‘exist for a reason’, and a lot of the views expressed on this post seem to reaffirm the stereotype of WWM in Thailand.

    I guess sites like this also promote the aspect of Thailand that contributes to the Western view of Thai women. I imagine that most women view ‘equality’ as having (real) choice, and if I did some of the things for a complete stranger that BBB tells tale of (particularly licking someone’s butthole clean before taking it up my own!), I’d like it to be because I want to. But then, as a woman in Western society, I am fortunate enough to be able to choose.

  30. WWW, the economic factor is huge in these girls' "choice" of work. But choice there is; nobody forces them into prostitution. It pays better than most of the other options available to them, such as they are. And like any workforce in any sector, there's a broad range of attitude and approach; like any job, there are those who are good at it and those who are made miserable by it. Look at the age range; this isn't a long-term career we're talking about. Some find partners, some give it all up (and yet manage not to starve) – you see very few women in their thirties on the job, and virtually none in their forties. And it is a pimpless system (although the club owners could be said to act as pimps, they actually pay a wage – not something your average pimp would be overkeen on doing!)

    As to the love and respect thing – just as the girls are as varied in their attitudes, so are the johns. I think you'd find the commenters here (and the lurkers) a very varied bunch. I wouldn't want to associate myself with many of the types who trawl Suk Street, but I do walk the same side of the street, so to speak, and it would be hypocritical of me (at least) to judge them for opinions and attitudes I assume they hold. My own problem, if it is one, is sentimentality. I find it hard, most of the time, not to get involved with the girls as people rather than fun rides at Sex World. And I'd be the first to admit that there's a very sad story to be told by most of them (failing factories, dying fathers, deserting husbands … the cliches are true). Not one of them so far has come from a hi-so family on Thong Lor, and made the decision to shag old foreigners for money because it's a smart career move that'll look good on the CV.

    But none of this means you have to treat them badly, disrespectfully, and behave like, well, a prick. The best ones have made me very, very happy, and I like to think I've rewarded them for that. And I have more respect for them (these are women at the bottom of the social heap in western terms) than I have for the complex, twisted, issue-obsessed and unhappy western women who have "successful careers" at the expense of femimimity and family. I'm sure this makes me a chauvinist pig from their point of view, but their point of view is one that no longer causes me much lost sleep.

  31. Pants Elk… sounds like the girls I hung out with would have classed you as one of the 'good guys'. I'm sure any WWW with half a brain would say that the increasing complexity of a 'woman's place' has created a degree of confusion and unhappiness for both sexes. That's the downside of choice, perhaps.

  32. WWW, you're not the only person to live with bargirls for a "fair while".  I got to know a whole bar full – who had Thai boyfriends, who had Japanese, who had farangs, who were loved, who were just customers, etc. I wrote emails for most of them. Unlike you, I did hear the word "love" now and again. Some girls did love some guys. It's human nature. Sometimes you're vulnerable and need love.

    To me, it sounds like you're still sticking to your own stereotype – the one that most westerners have of women who choose to sell sex "not having a choice".  Simply put, they do. If they didn't like it, they would do something else. You can see this sometimes in action. Girls hear there's money in it, try it but find they are plainly not cut out for it. They don't like it and drop out to do something else.

    You probably asked the leading question "Do you like your work?". To which, the answer would probably be "No, I only do it for money". That would also be the answer from 90% of the population, including me. You can conclude nothing from it.

    I know a lot of girls – how they got into the profession, their families, sisters, schoolfriends. It's interesting how often a sister in the same family – the same economic background – will choose a different path. One goes to university, becomes an office girl and marries a Thai guy. One becomes a teacher. One chooses to become a prostitute. There is no  difference of opportunity between them, just a difference of choices. And there is no "hardship" as such, unless you count their consumerist mother wanting the latest curtains/TV/furniture to "gain face" with her neighbours.

    I'd say bargirls' main gripe is that people look down on them because of their profession. I don't know why this should be so. People sell services in everything so why not sex? The girl I know best used to cry about this the most.

    My question to you would be: Why do some people, especially women, give people like me such hassle over such things? I suspect, like BBB says, that it's suppressed rage over a loss of "power". I'm stepping outside the market they previously controlled.

  33. Bibblies… you're right of course, and I would never argue that I was the only person ever to have shared a place with bargirls.I don't recall starting off conversations about their work, probably because I didn't want to give the impression that I thought it was any big deal (which would certainly have seemed judgemental). I first met them when one of them got me out of a very tight spot, so they were great in my eyes from the start!
    Obviously I can only base my views on my experience of the women that I met, and it was some time ago.I'm not trying to judge anyone.I've no idea what the answer to your question is. I've never felt that I wanted to be have 'power' over a man, so I can't really relate to it. I guess when 'sides' are on the attack as a form of defence it's hard to have a proper debate, which is a pity.

  34. www – In general terms why the girls do it is a very mixed bag, it grew (it has always when here) in the sixties and seventies with the GI’s and our own from Borneo for RR. The world traveler has now replaced them, not the same class, and now I think is getting a little out of control. You only had girls on the street because of the demand and I am one who is sorry for it.   I have know many BG that would find a job did not keep it because of the money, she just got used to the higher standard of living, so had their family up country. You have to remember I could feed myself for one pound fifty a day in BKK, if you know where to go. So if the girl gets 3,000 baht then that would be over two hundred pounds in the UK.  Most of the farm workers get paid about a pound a day so you also have to understand the family turning a blind eye. Many I have spoken to have used the money intelligently by buying land and build their own house. The love and respect means if they like you and you are good to them, they relate  and you both win out of the transaction, a short love affair, problem comes when you are too good then she inform you that she love you, then you have to move on fast! Never tangle with a jealous Thai lady things get chopped off and sent off tied to a balloon, that’s what happen to one guy! Sleep easy B3.B3 – When I first went to Thailand, a lady would look after you for 500 baht for 24 hours some for 300 not sure about the cost of living since.

  35. Gosh. I wonder if balloon lady was 'publicly heralded by feminists' too? I thought that kind of thing only happened in the West…

  36. On Aug 15 and 16 WWW says, had the "Union Jack" (British flag) by her-or should that be his-name. On the 18th, 19th and 20th "Ol' Glory" (U.S.flag) was appearing by her/his name. Is there something you're not telling is W3 says, or did you just cross the pond? I know you said you're living mainly in the U.K and it's only a 7 hour hop across the water, but what's the story?

  37. chicagobob says:

    but what's the story?

    WWW is a man and he/she is using a proxy address. You gullible suckers have been had.:-D

  38. @KMS – I can post in HongKong (having a Chinese flag) and then 3 hours later post in Thailand (having a Thai flag) without the use of a proxy server. Why can't WWW do the same within a few days?

  39. WWW, it's the little flag next to your name that, Big Brother-like, gives away where you are when you make a comment. Some people here get confused when it changes, that's all. Then they take their Ritalin and it doesn't seem to matter any more.

  40. Now WWW is back in Britain. That was a short trip to the US. Sorry to doubt you WWW but your story sounded very similar to a book I read once called Patpong Sisters by Cleo Odzer. Would you care to expand on the details of how a bar-girl got you out of a tight situation once and what year this happened? Also you would be the first farang "woman" I ever heard of living with BGs.
    Skeptically yours,

  41. WWW: posted from UK Aug 16, 1:38pm (BKK time), next from US, Aug 18 – so a couple of days, more or less, between posts, which allows for jet lag and A Life.Then; a last post from the US on Aug 20 at 3:30 am, after a stay in the US of a couple of days, before a post from the UK, the same day, at 9:32 pm. So: that trip, and the two bookending posts, took place within a period of 18 hours – perfectly do-able, I'd have thought…Γƒβ€šΒ What's the problem? That some people actually travel a bit?

  42. I haven't been to the US for about four years. I've no idea why my 'flag' changed (you tell me). I was young (it was 1989), green, I'd had my passport and trav cheques nicked, and ended up senselessly pissed in a bar being hassled by a (would you believe) WWM estate agent. When I sorted myself out I stayed on there until I left BKK to do the usual north-south shit. I've never read (or heard of) the book you refer to, KMS. Last time I looked I wasn't a bloke. This scepticism is beginning to feel sexist…

  43. Putting my techie hat on here, folks.

    I suspect WWW uses one computer at the weekend, and another during the week. Or different internet connections, anyway.

    The address of the computer she used over the weekend used to be allocated to an IP block located in the USA (her ISP is an American company). This IP block has since been reallocated to their UK wing, but my (evidently outdated) geolocation database hasn't caught up to this fact yet.

    All very dull and boring, but there's no foul play at work.

    I think this is probably the dullest thing I've ever typed into this website.

  44. And BBB… I like the new sub-heading. I’d have that buffalo put out of its misery and splash out on a replacement. It’ll save you money in the long run.

  45. Anyway folks… I reckon I've come to the end of any meaningful contribution I can make to this debate. I doubt I can add much in terms of comment to BBB's usual posts… it's been interesting to read your views. And all the best.

  46. Thanks, chicagobob. I've seen it in used-book stands like on the corner of soi 22 and the like. Asia Books and the mainstream distributors might even still carry it. Cleo Odzer died in 2001 in Goa but she and her work is still remembered.

  47. Tried to see if this was mentioned from your posting (way too many and too long replies :))

    "Their deal in the West is pretty peachy. Like women everywhere, they supply sex and companionship in return for what’s usually referred to as “security”, but which actually means “money”. They know what’s expected of them, and they know what they can get away with."

    What I got to say, that security is truly what "all" women want.  (In men "hieracrhy" it is not as profound imho.)  But sadly for men and women alike, in Thailand and in "West", money equals these days too often security.  This is not some Western thing. Because in the end, honestly, both men and women want to feel loved at the end of the day, in a secure environment, without worrying what the next day will bring, or where u will get your next meal.

    Cheers.

  48. @Mike: You're right, of course, but that was rather my point. It's entirely acceptable for women in the west to say "I want security from a man", but most would never dream of saying "I want money from a man", even though the two sentences have effectively the same meaning.

    Calling it security means they can still keep a clear conscience when they're lambasting men who pay for sex directly.

  49. That was a completely self-gratifying post (I'll admit that I just wanted to see what flag would pop up).  But while I've got a few minutes left on my $8 per hour internet card I might as well report that Machismo is alive and well in this corner of the Caribbean.  As well as P4P.  But don't come here just for that, it can't compete with Thailand.

    It was interesting to hang out in one of the myriad squares in the city last night.  Families strolling by hand in hand.  5 year olds zooming around on dilapidated yet somehow still tricked out bicycles.  Groups of Italian men with greazed back hair with their jineteras.  And even the odd local perv strolling around chatting up the nightwalking talent.  All unequivocally at ease under the watchful gaze of the Catholic Church across the street.

    Sex for money?  Por supesto.

  50. Khop Khun Khup Knight!
    @Heckler: Going to Cuba myself next winter. How much for a "date" with a senorita? Are you sure you didn't mean to say "groups of Latino (or Spanish) men"? I didn't think they had too many Italians in Cooba.
    I thought you were from the States. Didn't they hassle you for being American?

  51. KMS, what did Cleo Odzer die from, she can't have been old?

    P.S. Thanks for the heads-up on a possible location for the book!

  52. For Christ's sake KMS let the man read for himself. You can read Chicagobob, can't you? By the way there is a big difference between a tumor and a hemorrhage, although I am not really a doctor, I just think I am when I'm drinking Crown and seven….

  53. Ma Says:
    KMS Says
    Yeah, Ma (Jeez! I haven't said that in a while!!!!) I can read. Thanks guys, I read B3's post so I already knew, but I'd rather be told x2, than completely ignored.  Ma, you got me thinking about "Seagram's 7" and 7-up. Man! I haven't had one of those since Mrs O'leary's cow was a calf! So this weekend is fixed: buy book; buy "7-7". Bring on the weekend!!!!!!!!

  54. @KMS – Damn dude, do you believe everything you read on ThaiVisa? It is written by morons (me included although using a different handle). Yeah, I agree Wikipedia can be edited but for the majority of the reasons I use it (technical research) and I find it to be somewhat accurate. I do agree with you, she is dead… At least that's what I have read…  πŸ™‚ As for the Crown, yes, it's a damn good beverage when I can find it. If not I settle on Jack and Coke or as ChicagoBob relates to, a good 7-7 is 'A' okay! I do miss my microbrews from the USA..

    @ChicagoBob – I agree 7-7 is a good morale booster, but a 'book'???.. Hello, you're in Thailand, there are many better things to cuddle up to for a weekend than a damn book…

  55. @KMS: I'm not sure how much it was to engage the company and the services of one of the local girls for an entire evening (we took take-out from one of the local pick-up joints, Rosalia de Castro) and I negotiated 25 CUC's (roughly $30) for a one pop romp with my choice of the night. I'm still kicking myself in the pants for letting what even my travel buddy will admit was a drop dead gorgeous Tyra Banks look-alike slip through my inebriated fingers (too many of those damn Mojitos…mmmm, tasty).

    I could wax on about Cuba for quite some time, but I won't raise the ire of our jolly webmaster for drifting too far off topic. If you're curious for a trip report and details, just get my email from 3B, I'd be more than happy to share my hard earned lessons.

  56. As for the Italians, they represented a greater percentage of the touristas in-country than just about any other nationality except the bloody Brits. I'd say the Spanish ran a close third.

  57. @ChicagoBob – I agree 7-7 is a good morale booster, but a 'book'???.. Hello, you're in Thailand, there are many better things to cuddle up to for a weekend than a damn book…

    Good point, Ma. I'll make Mrs Bob's  weekend…..starting tonight!!!!

  58. Heckler: $30 is about half the short-time rate in Bangers. Cuba, here I come!!
    Now the lucky dog is in Mexico. Watch out for those bloody hurricanes this time of year!

  59. Someone asked why women freak out about prostitutes. There is in fact a very simple explanation, from the standpoint of evolutionary biology/psychology.

    First a quick biology primer. In addition to any cultural/societal programming (=learned behaviour), there is genetic programming which has evolved over thousands of years evolution that guides the primate 'mating game'. All women inherit this programming at birth (=unconscious, automatic behaviour).

    The goal of the game, like with our cousins the chimpanzees, is to (1) mate with the males who have the best genes (2) when in estrus and (3) ensure at least one male will stick around to ensure the security of the family… so the kids can reach the age where they themsleves can mate.

    (1) the best genes are those that will help the offspring attract the opposite sex themselves and increase the chances of  producing another generation  – i.e. 'Cassanovas'/'Don Juans' are good choices; if the male has a harem or looks like he could maintain one, he's in – we're just after good genes here, nothing to do with taking care of the kids; these males triggers chemicals in the female => lust; sure she can resist but she's still gonna get the feelings of attraction when she meets a guy like this

    (2) with estrus in female chimps, their genitalia swell up like red balloons – there is no missing it – no problem getting male attention when it's the right time; and the males go nuts; with human females, their are no visible signs, except her private calendar; only she knows the dates – she has to make sure somehow she has the needed male attention when the time is right; don't forget we're talking about unconscious instinct here, not conscious decision making; and no one said these instincts in humans necessarily get acted on

    (3) once she's chosen the best partners and mated with them, she needs a dependable male to stick around and be a good father i.e. 'Ward Cleaver' not Cassanova; and here we have another set of chemicals at play => love; they  trigger the feelings of bonding; meanwhile Ward and Don's sperm may be fighting it out inside her for who actually gets her pregnant; in the absence of a paternity test Ward may end up raising Don's kidsI'm deliberately leaving out any mention of culture/society/morality here.

    Obviously we don't necessarily follow the genetic program as intended. We have other ideas about the proper way to pair up and have children. And in general we follow convention.  I'm just pointing out the unconscious instincts are still there.  We don't consciously decide to release the chemicals that make us feel attracted to someone or in love.  It just happens.  This is not learned behaviour.  It's not culture/society and certainly not morality that this comes from. End of biology lesson.

    Now we can answer the original question. Females compete for male attention.  Prostitutes can get male attention easy and often.  It is difficult  to compete with them.  Same for whores of the unpaid variety — fierce competitors.  

    The real currency that all women are eternally after, whether they be nice girls, prostitutes or unpaid whores, is: male attention.   This attention can be as simple as a mere look in her direction.  But it is still just as valuable.  I have seen women do some very silly things in desperate attempts to get my attention.  I'm sure you have too. I believe attention is much more valuable to women than money.

    To recap, the female goal of the species is to attract males and choose the one(s) with the best genes.  The female that gets the most attention is going to be the one who has the best shot at mating with the males that have the best genes and thereby to produce the best adapted offspring.  Her competition?  Other females.

  60. Nice try, "author". If there's one argument calculated to make an already issue-obsessed woman go over the hormonal edge into apoplectic meltdown it's the old "genetic programming" riff. It is, unfortunately, unanswerable. The "cultural programming" thing is their chosen battlefield because it allows them the feeling of being in control of themselves and their destinies and choices, and of not "accepting" the male cultural values that define society.

    But to suggest that their sexual response is somehow embedded into their genetic structure, that finding a suitable mate for the purposes of motherhood is a natural and undeniable urge that has nothing to do with conscious decision-making – no such thing as free will – is the way to really get them frothing at the mouth, and maybe other orifices.

    Shame there aren't any women here to put us right. I always thought this blog would be a fantastic platform for a swivel-eyed feminist in pink Crocs and hair ribbons.

  61. @pants: i'm with you 100%.  i pologise for that long ramble.  but you definitely got the msg.  just 2 things i want to make clear: 1. i am not saying these unconscious instinctual influences on female behaviour are the only thing that drive women to do what they do.  i am saying however the underlying drives are still there.  can't be turned off.  2. the cultural/societal/moral element is what overlays the biological drives and mixes with it and gives us a very confusing result, not the neat and sorted one our rational minds would want.  hence we debate ad infinitum.  but the biological stuff is unconscious and to me, that means you can't 'discuss' it.  when a women tells you she wants  a nice guy and then she goes with a badboy, you can't ask her to explain why.  when she cheats you can't ask her to explain why.  well, you can but i doubt you're going to get a satisfactory answer.  better you just know yourself there are parts of her mind over which she has no control.  and you can't judge her for unconsciously motivated action.  you can talk about cultural/societal/moral stuff till your blue  in the face but you can't argue the existence/nonexistence of the unconscious biological stuff.  it simply isn't up for argument.  the only questions to argue are just how much it is affecting what we do. no one wants to make excuses for their behaviour by citing unconscious biological drives.  but trying to find an explanation for every human behaviour in some cultural value, societal norm or moral teaching has lost its appeal… to me anyway.  women arguing about morality are boring.  sexual tension (a classic example of an entirely unexaplinable phenomenon) — this on the other hand is stimulating.  i rarely see both happening at the same time. 

  62. Here here.  I am a firm proponent of the 'biological explantion' to the way women operate.  Having myself been described in one breath as 'marriage material' and then having had the next breath stolen by the terrifying and disheartening experience of almost being a cuckold father, what other explanation is there?

  63. @ author: "women arguing about morality are boring" is a little wordy, too. Surely "women arguing are boring" gets to the heart of the matter?
    I'd also make a strong case for the male being the most truly romantic of the sexes. As in, falling in love with a person for who that person is, and not what that person can do for you, genetically or economically (gosh, I hope a woman is reading this!) Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but we're not, generally, eyeing up a woman because she'd make a good mother for our children, or she's got a lot of disposable income.

    Bitter? Me? Damn right. My experiences with western women (to whom I have devoted most of my income, and my life) have been, in spite of my best efforts, major wastes of precious time. Two marriages to independent, clever, attractive, ambitious white women are just two too many. Oscar Wilde said "Bigamy is having one wife too many; monogamy the same."  But then, he hadn't met the Thai Whore Of His Dreams.

  64. @pants: one way to be more attractive to women is not to pay any attention to what they think.  nor what gay men think (oscar wilde??).   exception being  fashion sense or interior decoration.  but we're talking about the hobby here.

    alas this blog doesnt let me edit my comments, wordy as they are.

    @heckler: good on ya.

  65. Hmm. Now I'm interested again. I did say in my very first comment that 'what separates the sexes is pretty much just biology.' Sexes, that is.

  66. Hoorah! I was hoping you were out there, WWW. In your pink Crocs. Your prize for the hundredth post is this here t-shirt, with Bangkok Bad Boy Token Feminist appliqued in sparkly loopy writing. I got you a Large, but if you wear it in the rain it'll shrink to fit nicely.When you're (if ever again) next in Bankers, I'd be delighted to present it in person. I'll be wearing a hardhat and flinching.

  67. WWW, I am falling in love with you. And not in a shallow, sexist way. In the deep and meaningful way that only a man can; for what and who you are.

    Please send 3B a photograph of yourself, so I can see if you're a bit of an old slapper or "good for your age".

    As for myself, I am NS, GSH, like cinema, long walks in the country, classic rock, and women who take it up the bum. No timewasters, please.

  68. Pants Elk… I'm independent, clever, attractive, white and (I know there's still doubt out there) a woman. Not ambitious, however (as Wilde also said, 'Ambition is the last refuge of the failure.') Face it, you've tried women like me twice, and it just don't work for you.I think you're drifting off topic. May I suggest, as you sound quite learned and I suspect are a bit (in most respects) left-ish, http://www.dating.guardian.co.uk. The 'up the bum preferred' column.

  69. "I'm independent, clever, attractive, white and (I know there's still doubt out there) a woman."

    Oh dear … you were doing fine up until just after the "I'm" bit!

  70. Honesty is the best policy. At least you know where to go to find the kind of woman you do want. If only there was an equivalent for we women where we could pay men to look (convincingly) like they're interested in what we're saying and look us in the face as we say it (rather than glance at our tits whenever they think we're not looking – we always notice), engage us in witty and intelligent repartee as foreplay, resist the tempation to drunkenly challenge some unfortunate bloke for looking our way, not tell us sob stories about how they've been used and abused by their 'evil' exes, and not try to impress us with their pay packet or car. Then be an absolute God in bed.

  71. Hmm. I'm not (see the subhead) a 'lonely' woman. And having grown up in an Afro-Caribbean neighbourhood (been there, got the T-shirt) that wouldn't meet my 'shared culture' criteria. I don't date men like that, fortunately. I'm talking of 'we women', not 'me'. But thanks for the concern!

  72. @ WWW:  "… men (who) look (convincingly) like they're interested in what we're saying and look us in the face as we say it (rather than glance at our tits whenever they think we're not looking – we always notice), engage us in witty and intelligent repartee as foreplay, resist the tempation to drunkenly challenge some unfortunate bloke for looking our way, not tell us sob stories about how they've been used and abused by their 'evil' exes, and not try to impress us with their pay packet or car. Then be an absolute God in bed."

    This is SO me! I don't have a pay packet or a car, so no problems there. I'm not a tit man, I'm never drunk, and I never whine about my ex's except in off-topic comments to people's blogs. I even thought I'd fulfilled your final requirement until I realised you'd said "god" and not "dog".

    I still think we should get a room.

  73. @WWW: who said anything about dating? sex tourism, for women or men, is not about dating. for dating you should google “dating tourism”

    also, why do women love honesty? because they can’t stand the thought of being manipulated. same as men. and that has nothing to do with evol biol

    nor does the need for witty repartee and the like. if a guy is a god in bed, the need for witty repartee gets relaxed. one need has to do with biology and the intense ‘feelings’ it triggers via hormones. the other has to do with culture and not ‘feeling’ manipiulated, unintelligent, an object, etc.

  74. biology and culture are at odds with each other and that is why it is difficult to have your cake and eat it too. i.e. gods of sex are rarely gods of clever conversation who suppress testosterone around other males and refrain from assessing a woman’s body. this applies to women too.

    some of the best sex is with women who are total nutters. goddesses of intense sex but absolutely the last people you want to spend time around.

  75. So what you are saying author is that conversation skills are not what gets you into bed? And that it is precisely the manly characteristics like not really paying atteniton to what a women says and checking out her rack that attracts a women sexually in the first place?
    I would agree with that. I mean, it’s women who say they want to listened to… and we all agree that listening to women is not something a real man does. So we shouldn’t listen to them when they say they want to be listened to. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Guys who take the advise of women on how to behave around women are not men. They are girlie men. That said, girlie men can still get laid in BKK. πŸ™‚

  76. Quoth the BBC:

    Men look for beauty, while women go for wealth when it comes to assessing future partners, researchers say.

    An Indiana University team looked at the behaviour of 46 people taking part in a speed-dating session.

    They found that the men were more likely to go for the more attractive women, while women opted for those who could give the best financial security.

    Men were also likely to want to date more women, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported. #

  77. And just to fan these ebbing flames one last time, I found this at the Farang Speaks 2 Much website:

    How to get a foreign man: A new guide for Thai women

    Once you’ve found your boyfriend, follow these rules to make him fall in love and marry you: always look good, have sex with him whenever he asks, don’t be jealous of other women, don’t be too demanding and do all the housework.

    I wonder whether an English translation will be in the shops in time for Christmas. I can think of a few girls back home who I'd like to send a copy to…

  78. The key thing to note here is that this is advice how to make a man fall in love and marry. Once in love and married, this advice is no longer applicable. Once she’s got you, then it’s just a matter of making you into a wimp that no other woman would want and that she can manipulate. Whereas once she was providing to you, the roles are now reversed. Your role is now the provider to her. With your money, she will in turn provide for the kids and her family and anything that’s left devoted to her whimsical spending habits.
    Meanwhile guys who are not wimps, who cannot be controlled (i.e. not you) will still turn her on. So if she manages to stay good looking after marriage, you do have to be keep an eye on her if she’s around such men. It’s just sex after all. For women, sex is no big deal.

  79. Two driving forces in any woman (or any man):
    1. Biology
    2. Culture

    1. What makes women attracted to a man, physically. Unexplainable, except in evolutionary terms. Why women can say things like “I don’t know why, but I just was attracted to him, blah, blah, blah.” When a woman feels this way she will find a way to sleep with a guy, trying her best to stick within the cultural rules.
    This is why I want a woman to sleep with me. Because I get her turned on. And she can’t help herself.

    2. The rules. What women are ‘supposed’ to be attracted to. What women say when interviewed. Obeying the rules is what gives a women her dignity. It’s a man’s world (for now anyway) so status is all a woman has. She will strive for it and protect it at all costs. This is not why I want a woman to sleep with me. She has zero integrity in my eyes when she’s following this line.

    If you interview a women at a speed dating party do you think she’s going to start talking about drive #1.? No. In fact, she can’t explain it anyway. And even if she could (e.g. she’s an evolutionary psychologist) she won’t want to- it won’t make her and women in general look good. She’s going to stick to #2. She’ll be thinking “What does society expect of me? How will I look most dignified? What will get me the most respect?”

  80. Ah, nice to find this site after suffering on thaivisa so long … πŸ˜‰

    I'd like to provide a, perhaps, slightly different viewpoint.

    "Why would I have sex with a girl who only wants my money?”

    After being here a year (chiang mai actually, still a bkk-virgin),
    I too would ask that question.  Not so much from a moral
    point of view I think though, 'tho I do come from one of the
    countries where only ugly old main in dirty raincoats pay for sex.

    As it is, I have for the past months "got lucky" 6-10 out of 10 times
    when I go out (better "luck"in later period, as I've gotten more proficient in my picking up skills/more adapted to the local environement).  I should add that due to other commitments,
    I only go out one or two days a week, friday/saturday.

    And  yes, I have never paid.   How about drinks?  No,
    Not even a drink/beer for the lady.  Has never happened.
    To the controrary, they are usually the ones offering me theirs.  Probably since I don't drink
    (well, more or less), I will usually not be holding a beer/drink in my hand, and they might offer theirs.

    The same was true in my homecountry for me, so I'm doing the same here as there, though I've had to adjust my technique somewhat. 

    After I've sexed them, if I like them, I'm more than happy to offer them a drink/meal if I see them out again of course, here in thailand that is. 

    For me, it's much more exciting to actually "pick up" a girl.
    There's a challenge in that, a rush, an excitment. 
    I don't know what's going to happen;

    – Will she tell me to fuck off when she understand I have a girlfriend which I need to get home to before she wakes up, so I/she can only stay in bed til 04-05 o'clock?  (Yes, those are the logistics I struggle with these days, and I usually mention it up front, so they can
    back out if they want to.  I can see how a girl would rather go with
    somebody and could relax/sleep all night, rather than
    being kicked out in the middle of it, unless we go to her place
    rather my "office".)

    – Will she laugh me out of the disco when I tell her I'm not paying
    anything?

    – Will she try to barter me out of at least something "you give
    me 200 baht, ok? :)"?

    – Will she tell me to hang on, if she doesn't get any customer
    before closing time, she'll go with me instead?

    Any one of those, or zillion other things could happen.

    I don't see any excitment in negotating 1000 bath (or whatever)
    for sex  with a girl who goes with me if I pay, and does not if I won't.
    Kind of like that guy in children school who was giving
    out chocolates and candy to anybody who wanted to be
    his friend.

    Maybe I'll (have to) change my mind when I'm no longer reasonably
    young and hanzum. ;-).  And for sure I'd like to try out some of
    those bars I read about here, but then I'll never be able to say
    "no, never paid." again.

    Cheers, hanzum men!

  81. Got to say…the kind of man that would pick up a Thai woman in Thailand, and take pride in fucking her for free, not only does not understand a thing about Thai culture, he is a jackass. No worries. You will be punished, pal. Kharma. You should check into it.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    Some good discussion here. I look at the matter genetically. Western women are now obsolete. They are no longer genetically desirable mating partners, and for a long, long laundry list of reasons.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    Western women should be afraid. Very afraid. Not only do more than half of all marriages in the West end in divorce, the pool of stupid men who will put up with Western women is shrinking, and the shrinkage is accelerating. They have no one to blame but themselves. Thailand is full of lovely, beautiful women, as is China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, and a multitude of other countries. If you prefer "Western" looks to Asians, go to Eastern Europe. If you prefer Latinas, go to Cuba. If you prefer Asian girls, come to Thailand.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    I have been married to a "good Thai girl" for the past eight months. Best wife that I have ever had (she is number three). She is 20 years my junior. We get along just fine. Some cultural glitches, but the bottom line is, she is a very conventional, very conservative, very traditional, very sincere, very honest girl, and we work through the miscommunications together, and we grow closer with every passing day.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    While I am not an overweight, Chang singlet-wearing drunk, I am not Tom Cruise, either. There is no way that I could have a wife as young, and attractive, and as NICE as this anywhere back in the West. My wife is a headturner. She is tall and slim, and she looks very elegant when she is dressed up. When she is dressed down, she just looks very young and fresh.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    One of the other posters nailed one very critical point: Thai ladies, many of them, really know how to behave like ladies. There is a premium on politeness here, and behaving in a gentlemanly fashion will reap you great rewards. One of the things that I really, really appreciate about my wife is, she naturally changed her sense of style after we married. Her hemlines dropped just a bit, and she made it clear that she was sending the signal that she is a married lady. She looks great, but a bit classier now, a bit more elegant, very much understated. Devastating, frankly.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    She makes me want to be a good man, and a good husband. She deserves it.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    As for Western women? They are obsolete, a genetic dead-end.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    I will never return to the West. Unless it is to take my wife to see snow. Then we will come right back home, to Thailand.Γƒβ€šΒ 
    πŸ™‚

  82. Hmm, ok, guess you're right.  If I see your wife, and she's sexable, I'll slip her a 1000 for short-time.  That should put me on the level, culturwise and all.

  83. I relate to almost everything that has been said.  But, I now never bother to try and explain my Thai experience.  First, because I've found its impossible and second, becuase if everyman with an I.Q. over 80 truely listened to what we told them – then what would that do to the prices!?! God forbid.

  84. All women are crazy no matter where they come from.  Its just different types of crazy.  What do you want out of the relationship?   The Dating scene in the US really sux compared to Thailand.  However a serious relationship with a Thai has it's own different set of issues you have to deal with.  If you want to be single not get married and enjoy a woman when you want one and not deal with their bullshit when you don't want to, then Thailand is truly a mans world.  If I went to Thailand to have a good time I couldn't care less if some woman at home said "I couldn't get laid at home"  That is a insecure female(who can't get laid) bitching because we wouldn't be willing to put up with her BS even if she'd let us screw her……….Lack of testosterone makes all women insecure.  In Thailand you at least get one that can sit on your lap without making it hard for you to breathe due to her weight.

  85. Just to say, guys – that most of the WWMs I've witnessed here are, frankly, a load of embarrassing tosspots. Now the EWMs I like! Hope you all well.

  86. WWW! Did you know I decorated my cell with printouts of your comments? And I made a WWW doll out of a pillow and some old clothes! The face wasn't very good, because I had to use wax crayon and I don't know what you look like … but at least I wasn't alone any more! I told you all my secrets when they turned the lights out, and sometimes – you talked back!

    Hey – I'm on parole here in the UK – yes, the ankle tag is a worry, but if you're in my radius, let's hook up!

    Your Intimate Confidant

    Pants Elk

  87. Hi Pants.

    Maybe the doll is better lookin', I'd stick with that! And I'll bet she don't demand too much in the way of wit and wisdom (nor even what may be left in your wallet…). Anyway, you're not a 'WEEM' (I think I meant).

    One of the guys working out here is off to BKK for a break, and he's in the bitter post-relationship stage. I reckoned he'd therefore benefit from a little 3B advice on the 'Koko.

    Oh, and from my long ago study of Larkin, I came to the conclusion that he was scared of getting close to anyone – male or female. They fucked him up, they did.

  88. I was travelling and far away from any internet connection back in August when this blog was posted.  I only spotted it today, and have spent most of the evening reading the blog and comments.
    I would like to belatedly congratulate BBB on a great piece of writing, as well as joining in the chorus of appreciation for WWWs considered opinions.
    @Pants Elk & WWW: Get a room, would you?

  89. @WWW: Welcome back. I have no idea what an EWM is, nor a WEEM. Guessing from your little flag that it might be White Eastern-European Male?

    @Pants: Is it at all worrisome that I believe every word?

    @werewolf: Thanks!

    I obviously hit a nerve with this one, which I honestly thought was one of my weaker pieces.

    I actually expected my decision to compare and contrast the motivation and alleged reward of fundamentalist religious terrorists with that of aspiring whoremongers to be an even more popular follow-up piece, but it sank with nary a trace.

    Truly, the 'kokosphere is a fickle mistress.  New piece soon…

  90. The Rush Limbaugh of the 'Kokosphere! More, please!
    …………………………….(And please, stop with the "one of my weaker pieces" thing … it's just not true! All your pieces are equally weak, so stop worrying …)

  91. yes i have been busy, and only today have read the above article, so very insightful and true,although many variations on any take that we make still ends up the same, we all love thai women and thailand,,whitye women hate us and asian women love us,i have been to thailand three times and each time i return home i get depressed, the comment on the fact that when we are in thailand it brings out the gentlemen in us is so true and i think that over the past 2 decades it is almost non existent in our home countries,i was recently abused for opening a car door and playing the gentlemen, accused of being nice to get into her pants
    fucken oath i was,,,i drove off left her standing there  fuck it i said never again..
    we are just not appreciated anymore, but we are somewhere else, and that really pisses women off. the law the police the courts all favour the women, and we get trampled on fucked over and spat out by a system that is going to eventually fall us all,,we dont have long lives we are free to make choices, and that now i dont care what people say or think much less my 2 ex wives and assorted girlfriends
    i am going to live the 2 half of my life as i dam well please and be at peace and have some appreciation shown to me for the things i do with out judgement and shit a liitle bit of love is not much to ask for a decent bloke if it just so happens that it will not be in my back yard then so be it…long live the king

  92. It’s easy (and commonplace) to dismiss western men in Thailand as being sleazy whoremongers, who are only in Thailand because they couldn’t attract women in their own country, couldn’t afford prostitutes in their own country, and have to resort to cheap prostitutes in a developing country in order to have any kind of sex life.
    I think it is the other way around!
    Originally I am from an Asian country but I have lived in Europe for a long time by now. I am good-looking, hold an academic degree, have a good job. And now it comes: because of all this I can afford to explore other countries and fuck as many beautiful girls as I want. I do not have to stick to the inattractive girls from the country I live in (here sometimes it is hard to distinguish the girls from the men…).

  93. Reminds me of my own little mission, a movie critic defending horrorflicks against the arthouse-dictates of the elite πŸ™‚

    What boggles my mind though is the following. Isn't it everybody's choice, made from free will, to settle for a position that is, from popular perspective here,  so underpriviliged? The same free choice that makes you so enthusiastically opt for the modalities from Bkk's entertainment? Having said that, well, why bother with the moral ambivalence (if not to say hypocrisy, no denial from me here) from those settle with the challenges (no denial from me here either) of a traditional western family format? Why trying to establish moral superiority on these matters, on either side of the fence so to speak, if the chosen path is that of free will?

    I suppose I'm trying to find an elegant way of saying 'aren't you doing the very same thing here?'

  94. I appreciate this article.
    It values highly Asian women and does not speak of them as LBFM (little brown f. machines as I have seen else where.

  95. Anyone else following the correspondence in The Post following the astonishing letter from Susan (I think) Stratton in Chiang Mai? She complained that "oversized" people like her weren't being adequately serviced in a country where the native women look "malnourished" and dress "disgustingly" and use "trashy" make-up? I thought her letter couldn't possibly be real – it's like a pisstake (and no, it wasn't me) of the fat farang women (and their oversized attitudes) we came over here to avoid. She prompted a lot of letters telling her to shut the fuck up and go home. No, this hasn't got much to do with 3B's piece.

  96. I also thought that Susan's letter had to be a prank. But then, she could be a farang chick who is uncomfortably aware of her own genetic obsolescence, and like all farang chicks who are accustomed to getting their way, perhaps she thought that bitching about it might make the men in Thailand pay attention to her. Because she certainly is not going to be noticed here, unless she can compete with Thai females, and we all know that she is hopelessly outclassed. Sorry about that, Susan. But you are a genetic cul-de-sac. Buh Bye, now. πŸ™‚

  97. i havent read the article about susan in the post,but i think i get the gist of it by the comments here.susan couldnt get serviced adequately anywhere……it breaks my fucken heart.!

  98. Excellent article- I agree with the comments of Doctorbond.
    Asian know how to treat a man, be respectful, polite, certious and they can have a laugh and represent their point of view without being a bith, with this attitude of
    ‘well if you don’t do what i want the next guy will’. I’ve tried hard to find a desent western women lately. Give me an Asian (thai) woman anyday.

  99. I am serious!

    Well, were do we sign up for the MLA?

    We should model similar to (Alcholic Anonmyous)…

    Keep us on the “straight and narrow” and provide some sort of breeding ground to help out some of these newbie idiots or old time junkies – who are serious about helping themselves!

  100. BBB: Good stuff. Especially this part,

    “I get the payoff every day here. I watch white women in Bangkok. At first they’re enchanted, cooing at the cute Thai kids on the streets, loving the cheap and tasty street food, and maybe even enviously admiring the beautiful Thai women.

    But slowly and surely, they crumble. Because the more they see white men with Thai girls, the more angry and scared they become.”

    Had something happen with a gf who came over to visit me from the USA. She was all agog with the place until she started to notice how much attention the Thai girls were giving me. Her comment at one restaurant was, “Did you see how she looked at you? It was like I wasn’t at the table.” I knew I was right when I suggested she should only spend one week in Thailand instead of two.

  101. Great post…….also agree with doc, the fact that the gentlman reapears from inside us. Something that i stopped being to western women along time ago, ya only get stung.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *